6. The Legal Profession at a Crossroads

Join Dr. Hood as she talks to Stephen Juge, an elite international attorney, about the challenges of law school and the legal profession. In this, the first of a two-episode series, they will explore how the legal profession has developed into what many see as a highly competitive, win-at-all-cost profession. What does this type of system do to law students? What does it do to lawyers? What does it do to clients?

In the next episode, they will discuss the landmark study done by Patrick Krill, The Betty Ford Center, and The Hazeldon Foundation and what that study and the subsequent studies done by the American Bar Association mean for the legal profession.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:00
and now stay tuned for another episode of the traumatic states of America. Welcome to the traumatic states of America. Our main goal is to begin to heal some of the trouble we have suffered, both individually and collectively. I am your host, Dr Lori Hood, and I will be talking with people from all walks of life who has suffered trauma in its myriad forms. Military veterans, attorneys, first responders, football players, stay at home moms and many more. We will hear how trauma has not only affected them, but their families and communities as we take an in depth look at what science has to offer and what can be done to prevent, mitigate and help recover from trauma.

spk_1:   0:58
I

spk_0:   1:03
would like to welcome Stephen Jews, who is an elite international lawyer based in Washington, D. C. He attended Tulane Law School and studied is a martial scholar at Oxford, where he specialized in comparative law. Welcome, Stephen.

spk_1:   1:19
Hello, worry. Thank you.

spk_0:   1:20
Nice to have you. Can you tell us a little bit more about your background? I kind of have the basics. I think, um, just give us a little bit more detail about your your background in law.

spk_1:   1:32
Sure, it will get a human and ecological planing us. I was very fortunate to ah be granted a Marshall scholarship to study at Oxford. See that that's named after the the Marshall Plan. You know of aid to ah conquered nations in Europe after World War Two. So basically the Marshall Scholarship Fund, it is the British thanking to America for the Marshall Plan after the war. So I studied of their doctor for that the, uh, one of the first defining moments about my very beginning of the outset of my legal career. Azzan, considering going to law school, was a very during interesting experience. I attended college a a sizable state university, and that State university had a law school. But at the time the law school graduated are implanted to graduate ah, finishing class of 250 students. But they admitted 750 because of different, you know, considerations of, ah folks who thought that lots of people who may not ultimately make it should nevertheless be given at least a chance. So they, in effect eliminated by flunking out 1/3 of the entering class at the end of the first and second year

spk_0:   2:58
on the

spk_1:   2:59
story goes that they would they would on the first day of class, they would say, You look to your left, look to your right looking behind you Look behind you. 33 years from now, two of those three will not be here.

spk_0:   3:15
That I would say. That's one of the reasons I wanted to, um, interview you is, um I have an inkling or some sort of understanding that law school and the legal profession can be highly stressful. And so you just pointed to an example of that. Um so So what did that do to you?

spk_1:   3:40
It's hard to overstate what the competitive factor in that would be. The so students were graded every semester and grades were posted by name, you know, on the on the door of a classroom, if

spk_0:   3:57
you will. So, people,

spk_1:   3:59
people and people would be given Greg like 50 you know, when the minimum when the minimum scored a pass was a 70. And while I was an undergraduate, too, lost in, you know, committed suicide by jumping out of a high hi floor dorm window

spk_0:   4:16
on.

spk_1:   4:16
And so it occurred to me that, Uh, when I when I decided I wanted to go to law school, I felt I was good enough students so that I could I could pass. I mean, if I was gonna make a maybe and make things just sees. I didn't occur to me that I make these arrests, but on the other hand, it didn't seem very appealing. I want to go through that experience. So actually, I applied there. I find elsewhere. I ended up going to, you know, to Lane, which is a private school, of course. And my entering classes to Lane was 176 and 174 finished. One dropped out and one flunked out. So, you know, the competition to succeed was high, and I'm sure similar. But this, uh, you know, seemingly traumatic experience of literally eliminating 2/3 of the class on along the way, and the the outcome that it seemed to generate was something that I I very much wanted to avoid. So I'm glad that I did.

spk_0:   5:21
Right? Right. So so does that nature. That competitive nature is that throughout the law, profession and throughout law schools,

spk_1:   5:29
yes.

spk_0:   5:31
What do you think it does? Two students, if you could just give us your point of view. You've been practicing law for a very long time. Um, in your point of view in the United States, what cost at what cost are our law students and lawyers coming law students and lawyers?

spk_1:   5:52
In retrospect, I think so. And I should say that I don't intend by anything. I say in this interview. Should be judgmental or cast dispersions on any, you know, group or individual or institution. But I may say things in a way that sounds very direct. The point comes across

spk_0:   6:11
agreed. Yes, I that's exactly what I want.

spk_1:   6:15
In retrospect, glory. I believe it can create and can be seen as likely to create selfishness and isolation when in any profession and in any sector in the world, it's so important to be aware that were, you know, part of a bigger whole and have a team spirit and care about others and our colleagues and, you know, those we can help. So even that there's I think, I think, being humane, you know, being being humanitarian, which is desirable and suggest being unselfish, especially in certain situations. where people need help and and, um, you know, willing to give and help others and being, ah, you know, a successfully social person. I think that those that that level of competitivity creates at selfishness. You know what? What's in this for me? How do I best succeed to compete for the best jobs? Because then when I went to law school at now how you how well you finish academically has a pretty, very direct correlation to it. Missed your immediate and short term, shorter term job prospects.

spk_0:   7:37
Right?

spk_1:   7:38
And there's there's the angel issue at the time. The weather, you know, share great outlines, of course, is you may get with others and some folks, you know, maybe in study groups where they share outlines. But I think I'm having a grand outline from somebody else of a court was certainly a treasure. And the vast majority of folks I came across, at least at the time were were not the most open or giving a sharing

spk_0:   8:06
right they didn't want to share Well, they had a negative outcome. I mean, it was going to give someone else at least a ah level Plainfield. Right. Um, so this. I just want to interject here. This reminds me I am was a research system assistant years and years ago, and I was fortunate enough to be able to be part of a study. And this is just one study, but the outcomes interesting. So in this study, we looked at law students and medical students, and we, um, had psychometric instruments, and we, um, tested them for hostility. So there was a hostility scale in the beginning of law school in the beginning of meta school, medical school, and then part way through. And then in the end, and I think the hypothesis blows that a lot of medical students air in a helping profession. They want to become doctors, they want to help each other or help others. And they would be low on a hostility scale. Whereas lost students would self select for a competitive ah field or a competitive career because they were competitive and thus quotes hostile by this definition by nature. And what we found in in a nutshell was that law school actually created hostility in students that they went in about the same as medical students, but during and when they were finished. They raided, scored much higher on hostility scales. So that kind of even though some one study and it was a long time ago, it kind of supports what you're saying that, um, isolation and competitivity competitivity, um, lead to, in my view, stress and potential trauma. So, um, so it tell me now if you had, um, a wish that was to be granted to you. What would you wish for the legal profession from here moving forward,

spk_1:   10:20
I think one of them, one of the major things I hope for is a water sense of, ah, an attachment than it here in the goal from objective being done and fairness and for clients and all those clients and others interface with the legal system. So their experience to be as humane and, um, comfortable it is possible. You know, the U. S litigation system is, you know, is said to be adversarial. And of course it is. Our adversarial system is that there, there, there there are two separate parties and there against each other. You know, it's X versus why, and each side of the process of arriving at the truth is on adversarial debate. if you will, between the two sides that has developed over time in a way that produces a lot of eats ability. And Sheringham, I think aberrant conduct which doesn't take into account, uh, normal human civility and, you know, human human sensibilities. Ah, lot of things about the litigation process or used, you know, to discourage people to humiliate him on witness Stand to, um, you know, a lot of manipulation involved scorched earth by policies, you know, to do everything you can to negatively affect the other side, but to destabilize them. The system is geared, not does not permit taking unfair advantage, er or trickery. One of the one of the hallmarks of the process is meant to be fair notice and a potential of the light potential too. Reply and, um, and contest the other side's position. So I think a lot of lawyers I used all the all of lots of different tricks. They can shuts, but the system doesn't necessarily produce a fair and open discussion in process that produces adjust income. The outcome,

spk_0:   12:42
right, Right. Yeah, I would absolutely agree. So you you brought up civility, and that touches on this podcast. Um One of the things that is a goal of mine is that people are able to speak on this podcast and have any opinion they want, as long as it's not obviously inflammatory or are damaging as long as they engage in civil discourse. So I just want to remind the audience again what the definition of civil discourse is. Civil discourse is. Is engagement in discourse intended toe un enhance understanding. Let me try that again. Civil discourse is engagement in discourse intended to enhance understanding. And I think that kind of covers what you were saying. Um, I don't know that that the definition for litigation, What would it be if you if you could give us? I'm sure that it's defying legally somewhere that the outcome of a trial should be blah, blah, blah, is there? Do you have something off the top of your head that you could give us?

spk_1:   13:49
Well, obviously, for 99.9% of litigators with the objective of the trialist victory, you know that at any cost of getting caught for, you know, breaking the bar rule who are being directly on truthful, the the objective should be to have a fair process where the, you know the right the right was oh comes out. I think that part of the competitive, the negative competitive spirit in the profession is produced by on overriding desire to win, because that's how one establishes and continued economic success over time. And I think the constraints we've seen of a of a more competitive economy have affected that negatively. I can remember, you know, years and years and years ago, you know, seeing your lawyers saying that you know it sometime in the 30 40 fifties, whenever you want to take a day sort of from that distant past. Um, things were a lot more civil. People were a lot more collegial what I've seen in my career. Clearly, that law has passed from being a profession. Being an industry, a lot of that involved things like commoditization. You know, lots of things about the legal process have become standardized and systematized with more, uh, you know, lower profit margins. The you know, the A B study on wellness specifically site the fact that the the legal profession is at a crossroads where it's slice of the legal services pie is shrinking so imagine the economic impact off hugely. Ah, in exponential growth in the number of lawyers with it with a shrinking pie. So I think that creates the kind of competitive atmosphere which breathe, uh, a, um, incentive to succeed financially and from a marketing point of view at all costs, uh, and thes. These pressures, I think, have gotten much greater since, for example, things like the Skin on the crash of 8 2009

spk_0:   16:08
That was the first of two episodes with Stephen Jews, who is elite international attorney. In the second episode, we will focus on one specific statement that he made, and that is for the legal profession is at a crossroads. We will also talk about the landmark study done by Patrick Krill, the Hazelden Foundation in the Betty Ford Center on Lawyer Wellness in a substance abuse. So join us next time as we continue our conversation with Stephen Shoes. Thank you for listening to the traumatic states of America. If you would like to learn more about Dr Lori Hood, go to Laurie Hood. Ph d dot com. The Traumatic States of America podcast is produced and engineered by band Isla Productions at their studio in Washington, D. C.